Feeling Gravity's Pull

On The Eve Of R.E.M.'s Induction Into The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, Flagpole Sits Down With Manager Bertis Downs

originally published March 7, 2007

Chris McKay

Bertis Downs

Bertis Downs met R.E.M. at the perfect time for everyone involved. He was attending the University of Georgia's law school in 1980 when he saw the band's second live performance. He quickly moved from ardent supporter to legal advisor to co-manager of the band. Born Bertis Edwin Downs, IV on July 13, 1956, Downs has - except for a clerkship in Washington, DC in 1983 - spent the last 27 years teaching law on and off at UGA and managing R.E.M. in Athens. Add to that a robust, and in his words, "all-progressive" portfolio of work with charity and service organizations, and Downs stays quite busy.

From their early days as a cult favorite to their early '90s multi-platinum heyday, the members of R.E.M. led a relatively charmed life for a band in the spotlight. Then, major shake-ups in the mid-'90s threatened to derail the group. Longtime co-manager Jefferson Holt suddenly departed the organization in 1996 under undisclosed circumstances. At that time, Downs became the band's sole manager, though he's often credited as an "advisor." (R.E.M. has since day one listed its hand-picked employees in the liner notes of the band's albums.) Then in 1997, drummer Bill Berry amicably departed the group, two years after suffering a severe brain aneurysm onstage in Switzerland. Against the odds, the group soldiered on, and the decade since has been relatively trauma-free.

The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inducts R.E.M. into its ranks at a ceremony at New York's Waldorf-Astoria Hotel on Mar. 12. Flagpole met with Downs in the group's downtown office as he was preparing for the trip. Both before and after the interview, he was affable and engaged. While the tape recorder was running, he was more focused and guarded, almost in attorney mode. We hit the ground running, with him even borrowing my notes right out of my hand.

Flagpole

Well, I had this information. I think it's right. I probably don't even need to run it by you…

Bertis Downs

Can I have a look at it? [Reviews notes.] I was at the infamous Koffee Klub date, I think 4/19/1980. At the first show, they didn't have a name, so I went to their first show as R.E.M. They realized they wanted to play a show, they wanted to have posters, and you can't really have posters without a name!

Let's see: "lawyer." Well, I was always their lawyer, but I was also the de facto co-manager. From '81 on, I was teaching as a part-time instructor and as a research and writing professor. Eventually, I was able to quit my job at the law school and just work for R.E.M. as a career.

But I still like to teach entertainment law, and do whenever my schedule permits me. The last couple classes I've taught, I've been teaching people who were not born in 1980. I've been teaching entertainment law since '88, but I've been teaching at Georgia since '81.

Flagpole

How do you think your role, and the role of the entire office, has helped the band get to its various levels of career success? By way of example, I was recently watching a DVD on Badfinger, and their manager totally screwed them, took all their money, even drove one member to suicide. They were talented and had everything going for them, but management did them in. The opposite seems to have happened to R.E.M.

Bertis Downs

I think that we are able to let them focus on the artistic side of things. They are very up on the business side of things. They are very involved in running their own business, but we kind of facilitate that.

Flagpole

It seems that they were very fortunate to have run into people like you early on, and then continued to…

Bertis Downs

They've always attracted really good people around them, every level. Everybody that's here [in the office] has been here for a while now.

FP: Yeah, I recognize the same names in the liner notes.

Bertis Downs

We've had the same people for years and years, and there's a real loyalty factor, and it works both ways. I don't get involved with the artistic side at all. The most I would add on the artistic side is to say if I like a song. That's their thing.

Flagpole

There are stories of artists who are so into their muse that they have no idea what's going on on the business side.

Bertis Downs

They're all pretty level-headed and straightforward about how they approach life, and in general, the business side of what they do.

Flagpole

In '96, when you had to kind of take over the whole operation, was that transition difficult?

Bertis Downs

No.

Flagpole

Was there more work? Were you having to put in more hours?

Bertis Downs

No.

Flagpole

You've now pretty much made your whole career here. What do you like about Athens? And do you have any regrets, maybe that you could have lived in, say, New York?

Bertis Downs

No. The only town that I like as much as Athens is Chapel Hill. I've made my home here, and I plan to stay here. I think what I like about Athens is its sense of place, which I know is a cliché. Its proximity to Atlanta without being part of Atlanta. My friends, the people I know around town. The neighborhoods. Being able to walk your kids to school, or to take a bike ride around the neighborhood, the simple stuff. And the fact that we're still a town, not a big city.

Chris McKay

Mills-Berry-Stipe-Buck

Flagpole

I remember that in 1980, the population was 50,000 - a fact I only know from reading every article I could about R.E.M. while I was growing up. But now…

Bertis Downs

Yeah, we're at least 100,000.

Flagpole

If you hadn't run into the band, what might you have done instead?

Bertis Downs

When I came to the law school, I was interested in poverty law. I was going to work in legal aid, people's services, become a prison lawyer. But I was graduating from law school the spring after Ronald Reagan was inaugurated, 1981, so there were all kinds of budget cuts. So, actually nobody was hiring.

I was really lucky that the law school offered me a job teaching, because I was able to stay in Athens, and I was able to start moonlighting and helping out the R.E.M. guys. I liked them as people, liked the music, and I had always been interested in music from my college days, and had studied the business side of music.

Flagpole

Would it be safe to say most of your training was on-the-job?

Bertis Downs

Oh yeah, very much so. Going to seminars, some self-education, some mentors - people I looked up to who really helped me out. And I try to help other people out.

Flagpole

Speaking of which, well, with helping people or groups, how do you or the band decide that? When to give…

Bertis Downs

We try to say yes as much as we can. We get stuff, we evaluate it. We also know of groups we find out about on our own… We try to find a balance: responsible, good idea, effective, and in some sense grassroots, that's not getting money from everyone all over town.

Flagpole

Do you ever worry about watering down the R.E.M. "brand name?" That you've got yourself out there too much? I'm thinking of artists that get teased for taking on too many causes: Sting, Coldplay…

Bertis Downs

You do watch out for that. To me, there's a distinction between quietly supporting something, from a donation standpoint, versus… for example, years ago, I testified about the Ticketmaster stuff, the surcharges, all that. Those things, you've got to bone up, you've got to know what you're talking about, or you do look like, "just give me a microphone and I'll say anything." Nobody wants to be in that position.

Flagpole

Moving into town, I just thought the philanthropy was a unique thing. I grew up in towns that had music, but they didn't have anybody that was so active on that side as well…

Bertis Downs

We just fell into it when [activist and former mayor] Gwen O'Looney asked us for some help early on, and Derek Floyd, who still works at the Boys And Girls Club. Those were early issues in the band's career when they were able to donate some money and help out. We're talking late ‘80s.

Flagpole

Do the bandmembers feel it's their duty to be philanthropic?

Bertis Downs

I don't know if the word "duty" is right. They realize they are in a fortunate position, and they realize that they are able to help, and support good causes, good organizations, good people.

Flagpole

What about the band's next album?

Bertis Downs

They are working on a record. Rather, they are writing a record, they've gotten together a few times in the fall and winter, and we're going to start recording probably late spring, early summer. I think we'll finish a good bit this year. I don't think it will be done in time to put out this year. But the steps that we've taken are very positive… There's going to be a new producer. There are rumors "which I can neither confirm nor deny." It's too early to break the news.

Flagpole

And then, tour? Is there talk of that?

Bertis Downs

Too early to know. I would think they would, because generally you have to tour when you have a new record. But then again, this band hasn't always toured with a new record.

Flagpole

I get the sense that they like touring now more than, say, certain tours in the past.

Bertis Downs

Let's see, we've only had three tours in eight years. This last tour, I would say we all thought that was the best tour they ever did.

Flagpole

And you got to do some unusual places.

Bertis Downs

Yeah, we were able to get to places that we never had been, and there's still many more that we haven't been. There's been a lot of demand that we didn't even realize over the years. South America, we got to go to recently, and South Africa finally. Those places just went bananas: the loudest crowds we've ever had, and the band was more energized by that than anything…

I'm there most of the shows. Generally, I'm going to be where the band's center of gravity is. Because, even though we do so many things by email, if there's something that needs to be talked about face-to-face, I need to be right there. I can't be doing that in an office in isolation, on the phone. I need to just say, "Guys, can I have a couple minutes after soundcheck to go through these things?" That's what happens while I'm out there.

Flagpole

I want to talk about the Hall of Fame. The band's going to perform.

Bertis Downs

Oh yeah. With Bill. The four of them are being inducted as Berry-Buck-Mills-Stipe, as R.E.M. grew up and was known.

Flagpole: I guess that might be confusing to some people. But then, with Van Halen getting inducted - that sounds like a trainwreck. It makes this look easy.

Bertis Downs

Yeah, our situation is simple compared to that one. For us, it's a one-time thing. It'll happen, Bill will then be happy to stay home, and the guys will continue as R.E.M. as a three-piece.

Flagpole

I have to ask - fans might hope it'll go another way and they…

Bertis Downs

[Smiles] Bill's very happy to be retired, and the guys are continuing on as R.E.M., and it's been that way for going on 10 years, 1997. If this is confusing to people, it shouldn't be.

Flagpole

I was at the Georgia Hall of Fame induction ceremony last September. Do you think it will be similar to that?

Bertis Downs

It will be similar in that it's a Hall of Fame. It will be different from the Georgia Hall of Fame the way New York is different from Atlanta. In Atlanta, we ended up with a lot of our R.E.M. friends from all over, and [the Hall of Fame organizers] were pretty blown away. They sold many tables to people, random fans from around the world who came to see the band play with Bill, and planned their fall around it.

So there are things that will be similar, but I think in a lot of ways it will be a different environment. Plus you've also got Patti Smith there, you've got the Ronettes there, you've got Van Halen, and who else? Grandmaster Flash!

Flagpole

There's speculation that Patti Smith will get up with the guys.

Bertis Downs

Oh, I'm sure. They always do something with Patti.

Tom Bavis

Can't make it to New York to see R.E.M. inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame? Athensmusic.net will host a live screening of the ceremony on the big screen at The Melting Point on Monday, Mar. 12. It's free, doors open at 6 p.m., broadcast begins at 8 p.m.